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	<title>Comments on: Employee suspended for disclosing anti-gay views in a conversation</title>
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	<link>http://blog.usefullyemployed.co.uk/2009/04/14/employee-suspended-for-disclosing-anti-gay-views-in-a-conversation/</link>
	<description>An Employment Law Blog by a UK barrister</description>
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		<title>By: Usefully Employed</title>
		<link>http://blog.usefullyemployed.co.uk/2009/04/14/employee-suspended-for-disclosing-anti-gay-views-in-a-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-11677</link>
		<dc:creator>Usefully Employed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 10:57:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.usefullyemployed.co.uk/?p=310#comment-11677</guid>
		<description>Correct, and for once I&#039;ll leave your comment undisturbed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correct, and for once I&#8217;ll leave your comment undisturbed.</p>
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		<title>By: magicthighs</title>
		<link>http://blog.usefullyemployed.co.uk/2009/04/14/employee-suspended-for-disclosing-anti-gay-views-in-a-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-11546</link>
		<dc:creator>magicthighs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:41:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.usefullyemployed.co.uk/?p=310#comment-11546</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;ll find the lowest picture is a representation of me and one of your male relatives a fortnight ago in the van club.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;ll find the lowest picture is a representation of me and one of your male relatives a fortnight ago in the van club.</p>
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		<title>By: Usefully Employed</title>
		<link>http://blog.usefullyemployed.co.uk/2009/04/14/employee-suspended-for-disclosing-anti-gay-views-in-a-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-10161</link>
		<dc:creator>Usefully Employed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.usefullyemployed.co.uk/?p=310#comment-10161</guid>
		<description>James - I agree, and I believe a tribunal would have to consider both Article 9 and Article 10 engaged in this case. Rightly or wrongly I&#039;ve always regarded Human Rights arguments as having a certain weakness so far as they are used in determining legitimate treatment or reasonableness. 

From &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/2006/15.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Begum v Denbigh High School [2006] UKHL 15&lt;/a&gt; (apologies, as they say, for length)
&lt;blockquote&gt;
The Strasbourg institutions have not been at all ready to find an interference with the right to manifest religious belief in practice or observance where a person has voluntarily accepted an employment or role which does not accommodate that practice or observance and there are other means open to the person to practise or observe his or her religion without undue hardship or inconvenience. Thus in X v Denmark (1976) 5 DR 157 a clergyman was held to have accepted the discipline of his church when he took employment, and his right to leave the church guaranteed his freedom of religion. His claim under article 9 failed. In Kjeldsen, Busk Madsen and Pedersen v Denmark (1976) 1 EHRR 711, paras 54 and 57, parents’ philosophical and religious objections to sex education in state schools was rejected on the ground that they could send their children to state schools or educate them at home. The applicant’s article 9 claim in Ahmad, above, paras 13, 14 and 15, failed because he had accepted a contract which did not provide for him to absent himself from his teaching duties to attend prayers, he had not brought his religious requirements to the employer’s notice when seeking employment and he was at all times free to seek other employment which would accommodate his religious observance. … In rejecting the applicant’s claim in Konttinen v Finland (1996) 87-A DR 68 the Commission pointed out, in para 1, page 75, that he had not been pressured to change his religious views or prevented from manifesting his religion or belief; having found that his working hours conflicted with his religious convictions, he was free to relinquish his post. … In Stedman v United Kingdom (1997) 23 EHRR CD 168 it was fatal to the applicant’s article 9 claim that she was free to resign rather than work on Sundays. The applicant in Kalaç, above, paras 28-29, failed because he had, in choosing a military career, accepted of his own accord a system of military discipline that by its nature implied the possibility of special limitations on certain rights and freedoms, and he had been able to fulfil the ordinary obligations of Muslim belief…
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The &#039;margin of appreciation&#039; given to employers to rigidly set their behavioural code would seem to be wide. But simple expression of a view, outside of a work context, may fall outside it. There are some surprisingly generous decisions to restricting freedom of speech in civil servants however, eg you can&#039;t be in the Communist Party and so on. If anyone knows of an authority on the precise point then please let us all know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James &#8211; I agree, and I believe a tribunal would have to consider both Article 9 and Article 10 engaged in this case. Rightly or wrongly I&#8217;ve always regarded Human Rights arguments as having a certain weakness so far as they are used in determining legitimate treatment or reasonableness. </p>
<p>From <a href="http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/2006/15.html" rel="nofollow">Begum v Denbigh High School [2006] UKHL 15</a> (apologies, as they say, for length)</p>
<blockquote><p>
The Strasbourg institutions have not been at all ready to find an interference with the right to manifest religious belief in practice or observance where a person has voluntarily accepted an employment or role which does not accommodate that practice or observance and there are other means open to the person to practise or observe his or her religion without undue hardship or inconvenience. Thus in X v Denmark (1976) 5 DR 157 a clergyman was held to have accepted the discipline of his church when he took employment, and his right to leave the church guaranteed his freedom of religion. His claim under article 9 failed. In Kjeldsen, Busk Madsen and Pedersen v Denmark (1976) 1 EHRR 711, paras 54 and 57, parents’ philosophical and religious objections to sex education in state schools was rejected on the ground that they could send their children to state schools or educate them at home. The applicant’s article 9 claim in Ahmad, above, paras 13, 14 and 15, failed because he had accepted a contract which did not provide for him to absent himself from his teaching duties to attend prayers, he had not brought his religious requirements to the employer’s notice when seeking employment and he was at all times free to seek other employment which would accommodate his religious observance. … In rejecting the applicant’s claim in Konttinen v Finland (1996) 87-A DR 68 the Commission pointed out, in para 1, page 75, that he had not been pressured to change his religious views or prevented from manifesting his religion or belief; having found that his working hours conflicted with his religious convictions, he was free to relinquish his post. … In Stedman v United Kingdom (1997) 23 EHRR CD 168 it was fatal to the applicant’s article 9 claim that she was free to resign rather than work on Sundays. The applicant in Kalaç, above, paras 28-29, failed because he had, in choosing a military career, accepted of his own accord a system of military discipline that by its nature implied the possibility of special limitations on certain rights and freedoms, and he had been able to fulfil the ordinary obligations of Muslim belief…
</p></blockquote>
<p>The &#8216;margin of appreciation&#8217; given to employers to rigidly set their behavioural code would seem to be wide. But simple expression of a view, outside of a work context, may fall outside it. There are some surprisingly generous decisions to restricting freedom of speech in civil servants however, eg you can&#8217;t be in the Communist Party and so on. If anyone knows of an authority on the precise point then please let us all know.</p>
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		<title>By: Usefully Employed</title>
		<link>http://blog.usefullyemployed.co.uk/2009/04/14/employee-suspended-for-disclosing-anti-gay-views-in-a-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-10157</link>
		<dc:creator>Usefully Employed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.usefullyemployed.co.uk/?p=310#comment-10157</guid>
		<description>Thanks Simon - don&#039;t know why they moved the story but it seems to read a little bit differently...

The missing *not* was a typo, but a grievous one!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Simon &#8211; don&#8217;t know why they moved the story but it seems to read a little bit differently&#8230;</p>
<p>The missing *not* was a typo, but a grievous one!</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Bradshaw</title>
		<link>http://blog.usefullyemployed.co.uk/2009/04/14/employee-suspended-for-disclosing-anti-gay-views-in-a-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-10156</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Bradshaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.usefullyemployed.co.uk/?p=310#comment-10156</guid>
		<description>The story seems to have moved - it is now at

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6093378.ece

You may also want to edit your second paragraph, as the original story quotes the employee as saying that he was *not* homophobic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The story seems to have moved &#8211; it is now at</p>
<p><a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6093378.ece" rel="nofollow">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6093378.ece</a></p>
<p>You may also want to edit your second paragraph, as the original story quotes the employee as saying that he was *not* homophobic.</p>
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		<title>By: James Medhurst</title>
		<link>http://blog.usefullyemployed.co.uk/2009/04/14/employee-suspended-for-disclosing-anti-gay-views-in-a-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-10141</link>
		<dc:creator>James Medhurst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.usefullyemployed.co.uk/?p=310#comment-10141</guid>
		<description>I do not think that this is just a clash between Articles 8 and 9 of the ECHR because Article 10 should be added to the mix as well. It surely must be permissible to say &quot;I do not agree with the laws against discrimination&quot; and it cannot be discriminatory to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not think that this is just a clash between Articles 8 and 9 of the ECHR because Article 10 should be added to the mix as well. It surely must be permissible to say &#8220;I do not agree with the laws against discrimination&#8221; and it cannot be discriminatory to do so.</p>
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